Thérèse of Lisieux: Listener Questions (Part Two)
Summary
This podcast episode explores listener questions about Saint Therese of Lisieux and mystical experiences. Hosts Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates discuss finding God in the ordinary, the nature of suffering, using gendered language for God, and the concept of confluence in spiritual growth. Listeners share personal reflections, chosen devotional names, and experiences of soul connection with mystics, highlighting themes of self-love, divine union, and the transformative power of faith, particularly through the lens of Therese's 'little way'.
Key Insights
Evolving spirituality shifts focus from external action to inner presence and ordinariness.
Jim explains that what was once a way of being holy (social justice activism) evolves with age into a present way of relating to God through caring for family and finding wisdom in ordinariness. This reflects the wisdom of elders.
Contemplating nature reveals divinity, as the world is God's body.
The realization that God's creative act eternally contemplates trees means that when God says 'Let there be trees,' they manifest as God already envisioned them. Contemplating a tree, like Brother Lawrence contemplating the fire, can lead to seeing the divinity and holiness within it. The mystics see the world as God’s body, bodying forth divine love.
Jesus' use of 'Abba' signifies intimate, personal divine love, not generic divinity.
Jim explains that using 'Father' or 'Abba' stems from Jesus' own practice, signifying God's intimate, personal love for individuals, not a distant or generic deity. While acknowledging the patriarchal context, he emphasizes the personal relationship Jesus fostered.
Jesus' language was not imposed or imperial; traditional male terms for God are often an imposition.
Jim argues that Jesus' own teachings did not use imposed, imperial language about God. The traditional patriarchal structures and associated negative experiences have led to a misreading of scripture, causing people to reject the genuine, non-violent way Jesus spoke of God.
God speaks at the confluence of woundedness and opportunity for growth.
Trey shares their experience that God often communicates through the intersection of personal woundedness with an opportunity for growth, citing St. Therese's experience of suffering and the hosts' own meeting as examples.
Confluence signifies rivers merging, representing divine union and interconnectedness.
Jim elaborates on the word 'confluence' meaning two rivers merging into one. This symbolizes God flowing into us and us flowing into God through faith and prayer, and also in loving one another.
Our true name is known only to God, discovered through intimacy with the divine.
Jim shares Thomas Merton's idea that God gives us a stone with our true name written on it, a name known only to God. This points to discovering our deepest identity in God through prayer and self-reflection.
Suffering is woven into human existence, not necessarily a gift but a reality.
Bob questions Therese's statement that suffering is the greatest gift. Jim clarifies that for Therese, suffering isn't necessarily the *greatest* gift, but it is an inherent part of being human. The focus is on experiencing God's sustaining presence within suffering.
We live incremental realizations of infinite divine generosity.
Jim uses the analogy of a wave remembering it is water. He explains that while our awareness might be incremental, God's infinite generosity is constantly pouring out. The divine richness is always present, even at the lowest level of awareness.
Therese's childhood actions stemmed from divine connection, not merely fulfilling external duty.
Jim suggests that Therese's actions, while appearing outwardly similar to fulfilling a role, were deeply rooted in her relationship with Jesus, who gave her courage and strength. This connection allowed her to grow beyond mere obligation or repression.
Connecting with mystics involves recognizing a resonance within oneself.
Emma feels a deep soul connection with Therese. Jim explains that this connection arises from recognizing an event within ourselves that the mystic's words articulate, making our inner knowing experientially accessible.
Sections
Introduction: Season 13 and St. Therese
Welcome to season 13 of Turning to the Mystics, focusing on Saint Therese of Lisieux.
The hosts, Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates, welcome listeners to the thirteenth season of their podcast, 'Turning to the Mystics,' which is dedicated to exploring the life and teachings of Saint Therese of Lisieux.
Listener Diane questions her life path as a 'little flower' versus a 'mover and shaker'.
Diane, a 70-year-old reflecting on her life, identifies with Therese's 'little flower' image rather than being a 'hothead' focused on social justice. She built a small world caring for her family, including a son with intellectual disabilities and a daughter with mental health issues. Poetry has been her solace, and she finds contentment. She asks about a quote concerning God and trees.
The Divine as Tree and God's Language
Evolving spirituality shifts focus from external action to inner presence and ordinariness.
Jim explains that what was once a way of being holy (social justice activism) evolves with age into a present way of relating to God through caring for family and finding wisdom in ordinariness. This reflects the wisdom of elders.
Quote: 'God is more a tree than a tree could ever possibly be'.
Jim attributes the quote, conveyed by Dan Walsh, to St. Thomas Aquinas, learned during his studies. It illustrates how God, in contemplating the Word from eternity, eternally conceives of all creation, including trees, before their physical manifestation. The quote highlights the divine immanence and eternal conception of creation within God.
Contemplating nature reveals divinity, as the world is God's body.
The realization that God's creative act eternally contemplates trees means that when God says 'Let there be trees,' they manifest as God already envisioned them. Contemplating a tree, like Brother Lawrence contemplating the fire, can lead to seeing the divinity and holiness within it. The mystics see the world as God’s body, bodying forth divine love.
Understanding metaphysical theological language requires training.
Jim notes that accessing the deeper meaning of theological concepts like Aquinas's work is challenging without specialized training in metaphysical language. He plans to explore Aquinas as a mystic in future podcasts.
Carl Jung: 'How can we claim the years have taught us anything if we'd not listen to the secret that whispers in the brooks?'.
This quote from Carl Jung reinforces the idea of finding wisdom and divine secrets in nature and ordinary experiences, connecting to the theme of God's presence in the world.
Listener Kathleen questions the continued use of male pronouns for God.
Kathleen prefers gender-neutral terms like 'Creator,' 'Word,' 'Spirit,' or 'nameless mystery' instead of 'He' and 'Father' for God, finding them more fitting for the Trinity and the ineffable divine.
Jesus' use of 'Abba' signifies intimate, personal divine love, not generic divinity.
Jim explains that using 'Father' or 'Abba' stems from Jesus' own practice, signifying God's intimate, personal love for individuals, not a distant or generic deity. While acknowledging the patriarchal context, he emphasizes the personal relationship Jesus fostered.
Jesus would accept any term used to address the divine.
Jim suggests that Jesus would likely be accepting of any term used to address God, emphasizing that the intention and personal connection matter more than the specific word.
Poetic metaphors for God are not meant to be taken literally.
The use of terms like 'Father' is poetic metaphor, representing an infinite Someone who gives of God's self personally, not boundedly. This personal presence is what the 'Our Father' classically signifies.
Concerns about God as a violent male figure are valid due to historical church actions.
Kirsten acknowledges that the negative historical interpretations and actions by the church, often associated with a patriarchal image of God, understandably cause people to reject traditional male language for the divine.
Jesus' language was not imposed or imperial; traditional male terms for God are often an imposition.
Jim argues that Jesus' own teachings did not use imposed, imperial language about God. The traditional patriarchal structures and associated negative experiences have led to a misreading of scripture, causing people to reject the genuine, non-violent way Jesus spoke of God.
The Trinity can be addressed with diverse language, reflecting God's infinity.
Kirsten notes that expanding the language used for the Trinity, similar to how they explored pronouns in a past season, is valuable because God is infinite, allowing for an infinite number of ways to address the divine.
Confluence: Woundedness, Growth, and Divine Union
God speaks at the confluence of woundedness and opportunity for growth.
Trey shares their experience that God often communicates through the intersection of personal woundedness with an opportunity for growth, citing St. Therese's experience of suffering and the hosts' own meeting as examples.
Therese found God's love in suffering, merging her pain with Jesus' crucifixion.
An example of confluence: Therese experienced God in the merging of her personal suffering (coughing blood) with the suffering of Jesus on the cross, deepening her understanding of God's love.
The hosts' shared journey exemplifies a spiritual confluence strengthening friendship and understanding.
Another example: Jim and Richard's shared start in monasteries, different paths, and eventual collaboration on this podcast represent a confluence that deepened their friendship and understanding of God's sustaining love.
Confluence signifies rivers merging, representing divine union and interconnectedness.
Jim elaborates on the word 'confluence' meaning two rivers merging into one. This symbolizes God flowing into us and us flowing into God through faith and prayer, and also in loving one another.
Nature exhibits constant, rhythmic confluences of opposing forces.
The natural world demonstrates confluence through the interplay of day and night, with each yielding to the other rhythmically. Life flows into death, and death into eternity, illustrating continuous transition.
Teresa of Avila's soul as a river merging with God's rain represents divine union.
Jim shares Teresa of Avila's image of her soul as a river into which God's rain (divine presence) falls, making it impossible to distinguish the water of the river from the rain, signifying divine union.
Allowing wounds to be healed by God expands our capacity and fosters growth.
Kirsten connects Trey's idea to the confluence concept: when our wounds are healed by God, we grow in capacity. This applies to physical, mental, and emotional healing, where blessedness can yield to broken places.
Brokenness contains sustenance, and blessings can carry burdens, showing constant interplay.
Even in brokenness, there's an inexplicable sustenance. Conversely, blessings can unexpectedly bring burdens, highlighting the constant interplay between light and dark, gain and loss.
Chuang Tzu illustrates the Dao as a flowing divinity that transcends apparent power.
Jim recounts a Chuang Tzu story where a powerful river, personified and boastful, ultimately flows into the ocean and the Dao, diminishing its perceived individual power. This illustrates the humbling reality of merging with the greater whole.
Relics, Devotional Names, and Divine Indwelling
Relics are distributed globally because the Earth is God's domain.
Angela questions how relics are distributed when cremation requires ashes to be buried together. Jim explains that the Earth is where all remains are, and importantly, the Earth is in God, so literal scattering is not an issue for resurrection.
Devotional names reflect a deep personal connection to the divine or a spiritual path.
The hosts invite listeners to adopt devotional names. LuAnn chooses 'LuAnn of the Ineffable Mystery and Divine Love.' Darrell initially suggests 'Darrell of Turning to the Mystics' but settles on 'Darrell of the pathless path and anonymous way,' inspired by contemplative traditions.
Adopting a devotional name connects to a deeper identity and guides the spiritual journey.
The practice of choosing a devotional name, like St. Teresa of Avila's 'Teresa of Jesus,' is presented as a way to embody one's spiritual aspirations and connection to the divine.
Carolyn calls herself 'Carolyn of God's inner pilgrims poets journalists and bloggers joining with all God's inner pilgrims poets journalists and bloggers'.
Carolyn's chosen name reflects a broad, inclusive connection to all individuals engaged in inner journeys, creative expression, and sharing their experiences.
Our true name is known only to God, discovered through intimacy with the divine.
Jim shares Thomas Merton's idea that God gives us a stone with our true name written on it, a name known only to God. This points to discovering our deepest identity in God through prayer and self-reflection.
Abigail chooses 'Abigail of the divine trickster' embracing life's irony and absurdity.
Abigail connects with the divine through surprise, irony, absurdity, and laughter, recognizing how God subverts expectations and transforms paths, often leading to tears and laughter simultaneously.
The jester at a king's coronation symbolizes the transience of worldly glory.
A medieval tradition where a jester blows out a candle before a crowned king serves as a reminder of the fleeting nature of worldly power and the importance of staying true to eternal values.
Original baptismal names were often those of saints, signifying commitment.
Jim notes the Catholic tradition of assigning baptismal and confirmation names from saints, contrasting it with modern naming practices and highlighting the historical significance of choosing saintly names.
Elise chooses 'Elise of the God of love and music,' linking faith and art.
Elise found solace in Therese during trauma and sees music as a primary form of expressing love, thus choosing a name that reflects her devotion to God through love and music.
The Mystery and Gift of Suffering
Suffering is woven into human existence, not necessarily a gift but a reality.
Bob questions Therese's statement that suffering is the greatest gift. Jim clarifies that for Therese, suffering isn't necessarily the *greatest* gift, but it is an inherent part of being human. The focus is on experiencing God's sustaining presence within suffering.
Experiencing God's sustaining love within suffering leads to liberation.
The core insight is how suffering can lead us to experience God's sustaining love, which then inspires liberation from self-inflicted suffering or the suffering caused to others.
Jesus unites with us in suffering, bringing resurrection's light.
Drawing parallels with Julian of Norwich, Jim explains that Jesus on the cross sees our suffering, descends to join us, and merges with us, bringing the light of resurrection into our pain.
Suffering can stem from an unconsummated longing for infinite union with God.
Another layer of suffering involves the unfulfillable longing for infinite union with God, an echo of God's own longing for us. This yearning, awakened in the heart, cannot be achieved by our own power.
Acceptance of inability to achieve infinite union reveals God's consummation in us.
Accepting our inability to achieve infinite oneness with God reveals that God is consummating it within us through our very inability. This paradoxical realization is a gift leading to union and quickening.
Suffering involves a reciprocity of love, mirroring Jesus' sacrifice.
Therese's view of suffering incorporates a reciprocity of love, where she offers her suffering for Jesus, joining Him in His suffering, which is seen as the reciprocity of divine love.
Therese acknowledged God's love even when unable to feel it during extreme suffering.
Even at the end of her life, suffocating from TB, Therese affirmed her belief in God's love despite her inability to feel it, demonstrating her spiritual depth and connection to the dark night of the soul.
Jesus' cry of abandonment mirrors our own moments of perceived forsakenness.
Jesus' cry on the cross, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?', is presented as Him being one with us in our moments of perceived abandonment, before ultimately commending His spirit into God's love.
The Little Way, Divine Generosity, and Self-Discovery
Teresa's 'little way' finds significance in being a complete drop of God's essence.
Rex uses the imagery of a drop of water being insignificant yet fully saturated with wetness, the same as the ocean. He relates this to Therese's 'little way,' suggesting the focus is on rediscovering and stabilizing this innate divine connection.
We live incremental realizations of infinite divine generosity.
Jim uses the analogy of a wave remembering it is water. He explains that while our awareness might be incremental, God's infinite generosity is constantly pouring out. The divine richness is always present, even at the lowest level of awareness.
God's generosity shines in our littleness and humility.
This points to the paradoxical concept that God's infinite love and generosity are most evident and accessible within our perceived smallness and humility, a key theme in Therese's teachings.
Courage, Codependency, and Divine Presence
Differentiating healthy courage from codependent behavior is crucial for self-awareness.
Elizabeth, a paraplegic since 17, questions whether her act of focusing on her mother's feelings after her injury was healthy courage or codependency, contrasting it with Therese's actions and her current practice of feeling her own feelings.
Being 'parentified' involves offering loving service to others that we cannot give ourselves initially.
Jim explains that 'parentified' individuals often provide loving service to a parent because they lack the capacity to give it to themselves. This service, while offered outward, can be a way of learning to care for oneself, which Elizabeth seems to have achieved.
Therese's childhood actions stemmed from divine connection, not merely fulfilling external duty.
Jim suggests that Therese's actions, while appearing outwardly similar to fulfilling a role, were deeply rooted in her relationship with Jesus, who gave her courage and strength. This connection allowed her to grow beyond mere obligation or repression.
Attentiveness to others, driven by divine connection, models spiritual maturity.
Therese modeled a grounded attentiveness to the sisters who wanted to be with her, even while dying. This attentiveness was driven by her connection to Jesus, not a loss of self into others' needs.
Soul Connection with Mystics and Spiritual Energy
Connecting with mystics involves recognizing a resonance within oneself.
Emma feels a deep soul connection with Therese. Jim explains that this connection arises from recognizing an event within ourselves that the mystic's words articulate, making our inner knowing experientially accessible.
Mystics articulate what the heart already knows, making it accessible.
Mystics put words to our own heart's experiences, transforming the ineffable into something understandable and relatable, thus deepening our connection to the divine.
Spiritual awakenings can be subtle or sudden, bringing overwhelming energy.
Jim addresses Emma's question about channeling overwhelming spiritual energy. He describes awakenings as sometimes subtle, like water filling wetlands, or sudden and disorienting, leading to feelings of being overwhelmed or questioning one's sanity.
The Spirit prays within us with unutterable groanings during spiritual awakenings.
Referencing Romans, Jim explains that these awakenings are the 'groanings of the Spirit' within us, a gift that signals a deepening spiritual process, even if initially disorienting.
Spiritual energy can feel overwhelming as the heart expands to divine proportions.
Kirsten adds that this energy can feel like one's heart is enlarging to divine proportions. The advice is to relax, lean into it, and allow this expansion to happen.
Teresa of Avila's basin image illustrates the heart expanding to receive divine presence.
Jim uses Teresa of Avila's image of a basin that keeps getting bigger as it fills with water to illustrate how the heart expands to accommodate the divine presence without overflowing.
Divine union blurs the distinction between self and God.
In divine union, it becomes impossible to find where the self stops and God begins, as God flows into us, and God's presence is merged with the mystery of our own.
Therese's mysticism was in the divinity of her sincerity and ordinariness, not ecstatics.
Jim contrasts Therese with ecstatic mystics like Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross, stating that Therese's mysticism lay in the divinization of her profound sincerity and ordinary life.
Mystical awakenings prompt habitual surrender and trust in the divine unfolding.
Awakenings, though sometimes startling, are moments that change us, calling us to become more habitually surrendered and trusting in the mysterious unfolding of our spiritual journey.
Conclusion of Season and Podcast
Thank you for an insightful season exploring Saint Therese of Lisieux.
The hosts express gratitude to the listeners and to Jim Finley for bringing the teachings of Saint Therese to them in a special way, offering reminders and introductions to her life and wisdom.
Listener questions deepen engagement with mystical teachings.
Jim highlights how the listener questions and subsequent dialogue serve to draw seekers into the mystical teachings at a deeper level, making the experience a shared grace.
Producers and listeners are thanked for contributions.
Thanks are extended to producer Dorothy for managing listener submissions (emails, voicemails, art, etc.) and to all listeners for their engagement throughout the season.
Listeners are invited to submit future questions for upcoming seasons.
The podcast will return for season 14 in the fall, and listeners are encouraged to submit questions via email or voicemail for future episodes centered on answering listener queries.
Promoting contemplative paths and inner transformation.
The Center for Action and Contemplation offers programs and resources (publications, podcasts, events) to support inner transformation, deepen prayer, and strengthen compassionate engagement with the world.
Ask a Question
*Uses 1 Wisdom coin from your coin balance
