Summary
This podcast episode of 'Turning to the Mystics' features Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates discussing listener questions about Saint Therese of Lisieux and broader mystical themes. Topics include understanding Jesus' embodied presence, intercessory prayer, reconciling suffering with faith, discerning God's call, contemplative experiences, and the Enneagram. The hosts emphasize finding God in the ordinary, the reciprocity of divine love, and the spiritual journey's ongoing, often surprising, nature.
Key Insights
The Gospels are the body of Jesus, embodying His deathless presence.
Jim Finley suggests that the historical Jesus is the same as the mystical Jesus who lives on. He proposes that the Gospels themselves serve as Jesus' body, through which his deathless presence can be encountered in prayerful reading.
God's surrender to us in Jesus is a loving reciprocity.
Jim Finley clarifies that 'surrender' in this context means a loving self-giving. God, in Jesus, freely chooses to surrender His very being to us, mirroring our surrender of ourselves to God in love, as exemplified by Jesus' words on the cross.
Shift focus from parental source of wound to present loving relationships and self-love.
Finley advises recognizing the parental shortcomings as the source of the wound, not the child's inherent lack of lovability. He suggests appreciating current loving relationships and the adult self actively loving the wounded inner child ('I see you, dear one. I love you.')
Intercessory prayer channels love and grace, blessing the intercessor.
Jim Finley explains intercessory prayer as an invitation from Jesus, where personal love merges with God's love for others, channeling grace. The sincere act of asking also blesses the intercessor.
The Holy Spirit is the primary awakener of our hearts to God.
Jim Finley explains that while mystics may focus on God or Jesus, the Holy Spirit is consistently the 'awakener' of their hearts, empowering their realization of God's presence. This is often implied rather than explicitly stated as a primary focus.
Integrate prayer and hobbies into daily life, rather than seeing them as mutually exclusive.
Finley suggests integrating prayer (e.g., Jesus prayer before bed, short centering prayer) and potentially hobbies like surfing into family life, proposing an 'and' approach rather than 'either/or'. This involves finding ways to weave these practices throughout the day.
Therese's fasting was a vocation, not experienced as harsh.
Jim Finley addresses the idea of Therese observing Lenten fasts while ill. He explains that for her, these acts were part of her vocation and not perceived as harsh, similar to his own experience in a monastery. Her sisters' love also created a supportive environment.
Therese's type is a hypothesis; Nine aligns with her peacemaking role and self-forgetting.
Kirsten explains the Enneagram types and that only individuals can confirm their own. She hypothesizes Therese might be a Nine (the Peacemaker), noting her role in maintaining family harmony after her mother's death and her tendency towards daydreaming, characteristic of this type.
Therese's sanctity comes from God, embracing her ordinariness.
Finley highlights Therese's insight that because she couldn't reach sainthood on her own due to limitations, God would have to be her sanctity through Jesus' incarnate presence within her ordinariness, a profound transcendence of self.
Sections
Introduction and Book Announcement
Podcast 'Turning to the Mystics' focuses on Saint Therese of Lisieux for season 13.
Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates welcome listeners to season 13 of 'Turning to the Mystics,' which is dedicated to exploring Saint Therese of Lisieux and will feature listener questions.
Podcast series is being published as books by Orbis Books.
Robert Ellsberg of Orbis Books is publishing each season of the podcast as a book. The first book is on Thomas Merton, with Therese of Avila and Therese of Lisieux to follow. Finley shares his delight in making the content available in a physical format.
Reading books offers a different depth of experience than listening to podcasts.
Finley and Oates discuss how reading the transcribed podcasts allows for deeper internalization and reflection, enabling listeners to pause and sit with sentences, unlike the flowing oral tradition of listening which is more like an event.
Listeners submitted diverse questions, poetry, and drawings this season.
The hosts express gratitude for the engaging listener submissions, including questions, poetry, and drawings, which enrich the podcast experience and complete a spiritual circle.
Correction on the pronunciation of Lisieux.
The hosts acknowledge feedback from listeners regarding the incorrect pronunciation of 'Lisieux' and thank the community for their care in honoring the saint's name and origin. Finley shares his preference for anglicized pronunciation in an English context, while respecting historical specificity.
Finding Jesus' Embodied Presence
Difficulty connecting with the historical, embodied Jesus.
Kristen asks how to connect with Jesus' physical body, feeling a disconnect despite connecting with the mystical Christ and living 'the way'. She struggles to sense Jesus' presence, wanting to see, hear, and feel him.
The Gospels are the body of Jesus, embodying His deathless presence.
Jim Finley suggests that the historical Jesus is the same as the mystical Jesus who lives on. He proposes that the Gospels themselves serve as Jesus' body, through which his deathless presence can be encountered in prayerful reading.
The Church and communion are embodiments of Christ's body.
Finley explains that the Church, as Christ's body, is another way to connect with Jesus, referencing the Eucharist where Jesus says 'This is my body' to the bread, wine, and disciples. Receiving communion is also an embodiment of Jesus' presence.
Connecting with Jesus through His past suffering and present actions.
Kirsten suggests reflecting on Jesus' suffering and relating it to one's own experiences, or seeing Jesus in the 'least of these' and within one's own self. Using a devotional image of Jesus with a lit candle is also mentioned.
Jesus' life story points to and rewrites history, revealing us to ourselves.
The hosts discuss how Jesus' life, from annunciation to resurrection, reflects and impacts all of history, revealing our own lives, humanity, suffering, and potential for resurrection. Jesus is born anew in our hearts endlessly.
Reciprocity in Divine Surrender
Questioning the concept of God surrendering Himself to us.
Wendy is surprised by Therese's idea that God surrenders Himself to us, questioning if it stems from a misunderstanding of 'giving' versus 'surrendering' and seeks clarification on God's surrender to humanity.
God's surrender to us in Jesus is a loving reciprocity.
Jim Finley clarifies that 'surrender' in this context means a loving self-giving. God, in Jesus, freely chooses to surrender His very being to us, mirroring our surrender of ourselves to God in love, as exemplified by Jesus' words on the cross.
Feeling Unlovable Despite Spiritual Practice
Childhood trauma leads to feeling unlovable, hindering receiving love.
Nikki, an 82-year-old, shares deep-seated feelings of being unlovable due to childhood abuse, despite extensive therapy and prayer. While able to give love, she struggles immensely to receive it, feeling a persistent sense of not being enough.
Internalized feelings of unlovability stem from parental mirroring.
Jim Finley, also 82 and with trauma history, explains that a child internalizes unlovability when parents fail to mirror their preciousness. These pre-verbal feelings can persist, feeling like a 'little piece of us'.
Shift focus from parental source of wound to present loving relationships and self-love.
Finley advises recognizing the parental shortcomings as the source of the wound, not the child's inherent lack of lovability. He suggests appreciating current loving relationships and the adult self actively loving the wounded inner child ('I see you, dear one. I love you.')
Shared suffering connects us, belonging to God's infinite love.
Finley notes that such feelings of not being loved are universal. This shared struggle allows for belonging within a community of suffering, all held within God's infinite love, even when God's presence cannot be felt, as Therese experienced in her dark night.
Triggering events can reveal hidden wounds requiring ongoing practice.
Kirsten explains that past trauma can be triggered by present events (like hearing about Therese's loved childhood). The process involves consciously practicing loving the inner child who doesn't believe she's loved, a continuous journey of God's grace working in deepest places.
Experiencing Contemplative Moments
Contemplative moments arise from acceptance in everyday life.
The Brewis family asks for examples of quotidian contemplative moments, where one accepts themselves as a child and is authentically themselves, often experienced in observing nature, family, or during mundane transitions.
God's presence felt in daily rhythms and immersion in spiritual work.
Jim Finley experiences God's presence in the rhythms of ocean life, immersing himself in preparing talks on Therese, and sensing God's presence in the sincerity of listener questions. He feels God speaks through him in talks.
Reciprocal love in teaching creates contemplative gateways.
Kirsten shares an experience visiting her sister's first-grade classroom, observing the reciprocal love between the teacher and children. She sees this as an act of acceptance and a childlike, reciprocal gateway into divine connection.
Understanding Intercessory Prayer
Intercessory prayer channels love and grace, blessing the intercessor.
Jim Finley explains intercessory prayer as an invitation from Jesus, where personal love merges with God's love for others, channeling grace. The sincere act of asking also blesses the intercessor.
Intercession exists within the communion of saints.
Finley describes intercessory prayer as also operating within the communion of saints, where individuals like Therese, who have 'crossed over', can be asked to help us, trusting they hear us through their intercession, as exemplified by the Litany of the Saints.
Intercession acknowledges human limits and God's divinity.
Kirsten relates intercessory prayer to understanding our limitations when loved ones suffer and turning to God's divinity, trusting God's presence and sustaining love even when circumstances are difficult.
God's sustaining presence is constant, even in suffering.
Finley adds that God's unexplainable oneness with a suffering person sustains them with peace that surpasses understanding, as God's love is immersed within them and never slips away, known through faith.
Connection with the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the primary awakener of our hearts to God.
Jim Finley explains that while mystics may focus on God or Jesus, the Holy Spirit is consistently the 'awakener' of their hearts, empowering their realization of God's presence. This is often implied rather than explicitly stated as a primary focus.
The Trinity is a unified mystery, with other persons always present.
Finley emphasizes that focusing on one person of the Trinity (e.g., Jesus) means the other two (Father, Spirit) are implicitly present, as God is One. Different traditions naturally emphasize different aspects, like God the Father, Jesus, or the Spirit awakening our hearts.
Pentecost signifies the Spirit awakening us to encounter Jesus in each other.
The event of Pentecost, symbolizing the Holy Spirit's descent, empowered the disciples. Finley posits that this 'light of Pentecost' means encountering Jesus in each other, as the Spirit is woven through us, awakening us to God's presence.
The Holy Spirit's role is to point to God and Jesus, not take center stage.
Kirsten agrees that the Holy Spirit's design is to reveal God and Jesus, thus naturally not taking the 'center stage' itself. It acts as a facilitator for experiencing the divine.
The Trinity can be understood as Christ's mind.
Finley shares theologian Raimon Panikkar's insight that the Trinity functions as 'Christ's mind,' a unified mystery of how God is woven into our lives, encompassing Father, Son, and Spirit.
Discerning God's Call Regarding Prayer and Hobbies
Embracing limitations can be a path to deeper faith and service.
In response to Brian's struggle balancing work, family, surfing, and prayer, Jim Finley references Thomas Merton: thanking God for the inability to live purely on one's own terms, as love for family enriches life. Work itself can be a form of prayer ('Ora et labora').
Integrate prayer and hobbies into daily life, rather than seeing them as mutually exclusive.
Finley suggests integrating prayer (e.g., Jesus prayer before bed, short centering prayer) and potentially hobbies like surfing into family life, proposing an 'and' approach rather than 'either/or'. This involves finding ways to weave these practices throughout the day.
Experiences of Divine Vastness and Prayer
Awareness of global and eternal prayer creates a sense of weightlessness.
Scott describes experiencing a sensation of the vastness of people praying worldwide and throughout eternity, including contemplative silence. This awareness brings a sense of weightlessness and does not distract from daily activities.
Grace awakenings are unique; non-attachment is key.
Jim Finley affirms these 'grace awakenings' are unique and a blessing. He advises non-attachment to these experiences, acknowledging rhythm and flow, and that God is mysteriously present even in the 'dark night' or absence of spiritual experience.
God's infinite nature reveals oneness in infinite ways.
Kirsten highlights that God's infinitude allows for countless ways of revealing oneness. It's important not to expect experiences to manifest identically for everyone, but to recognize how grace shows up uniquely.
The distance to God is God; divine absence is impossible.
Finley, referencing Karl Rahner, states the infinite distance between God and humans is itself God. There is no true absence of God; even in the dark night, where the experience of God is absent, God is mysteriously present.
Evolving Relationship with Jesus
Shift from focusing on God's infinite presence to Jesus' intimate presence.
Amy and Geneva ask Jim Finley about his shift in focus from God's infinite presence to Jesus in his later life. Finley explains that earlier, during trauma, Jesus' suffering and the Eucharist provided solace, making him feel less alone. In the monastery, his awareness shifted to God's surrounding presence, seeking to 'hear God speaking me into being'.
Therese reminds Finley of his deep connection with Jesus.
Finley states that currently, Therese reminds him of his deep connection with Jesus. He describes Jesus as an all-enveloping, unexplainable, intimate presence, representing God's presence – Father, Son, and Spirit – emphasizing openness to divine rhythms.
Jesus is the invisible face of God.
Kirsten recalls Finley stating that Jesus in scripture is the 'invisible face of God', a concept Finley affirms.
Therese's Orientation Towards Suffering
Struggle with the idea of 'wanting' to suffer.
Karina expresses discomfort with the idea of saints wanting to suffer, believing we receive sufficient suffering for growth. She questions if those who actively seek more suffering are in a higher state of consciousness, wanting to help the world.
Therese's fasting was a vocation, not experienced as harsh.
Jim Finley addresses the idea of Therese observing Lenten fasts while ill. He explains that for her, these acts were part of her vocation and not perceived as harsh, similar to his own experience in a monastery. Her sisters' love also created a supportive environment.
Anorexia and sainthood are generally incompatible; Therese showed no signs.
Finley dismisses the notion of sainthood coexisting with conditions like anorexia nervosa, stating Therese showed no evidence of food-related issues.
Experiencing providence in difficulties sustains and teaches resilience.
Kirsten notes that feeling a difficulty is providential allows God's presence. She emphasizes learning from struggles and not forgetting lessons learned in dark times, recognizing that shared suffering connects us all.
Therese and the Enneagram
Enneagram framework helps understand personality motivations.
Estella asks about Saint Therese's potential Enneagram type (suggesting Four) and how it might influence her spirituality, creativity, and image of God, referencing Richard Rohr's comments on his own type (One).
Therese's type is a hypothesis; Nine aligns with her peacemaking role and self-forgetting.
Kirsten explains the Enneagram types and that only individuals can confirm their own. She hypothesizes Therese might be a Nine (the Peacemaker), noting her role in maintaining family harmony after her mother's death and her tendency towards daydreaming, characteristic of this type.
Therese's 'Little Way' transcends the Nine's strategy by surrendering wholly to God.
Kirsten contrasts Therese's 'Little Way' with the Nine's strategy. Instead of vanishing into harmony, Therese hands her whole self to God, allowing God to illuminate her ordinariness.
Redemption involves transforming distortions of personality types through grace.
Jim Finley discusses the 'unredeemed' vs. 'redeemed' aspects of Enneagram types. Healing personality distortions, illumined by grace, leads to wholeness. He cites Richard Rohr's example of seeking humiliation as a way to be transformed by grace, using tripping points as opportunities to fall into God's arms.
Therese's sanctity comes from God, embracing her ordinariness.
Finley highlights Therese's insight that because she couldn't reach sainthood on her own due to limitations, God would have to be her sanctity through Jesus' incarnate presence within her ordinariness, a profound transcendence of self.
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