Summary
This podcast episode features Father Richard Rohr discussing St. Therese of Lisieux, a mystic he deeply admires. Rohr and hosts Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates explore Therese's 'little way,' her emphasis on trust in God's love amidst shortcomings, and how her teachings offer a powerful counterpoint to legalistic spirituality. They share personal experiences of how Therese's wisdom provided clarity and liberation during their early spiritual journeys, particularly highlighting her radical trust in God's love even during times of spiritual dryness and her final suffering.
Key Insights
Therese highlights confidence in God's love over personal limitations.
Finley points out two key insights from Therese: first, that it's rare for people not to be concerned about their inabilities and shortcomings in finding God. Instead, they should place their confidence in God's infinite love for them amidst their imperfections.
Therese's 'science of love' keeps one sane.
He references a book title, 'The Love That Keeps Us Sane,' describing Therese's teaching as a science of love that maintains sanity, suggesting a lack of reliable love contributes to societal insanity.
Faith is a free action, not based on external motivation.
Rohr connects this to the nature of faith, which he now understands as a free action not motivated by childhood teaching, social pressure, or sermons, but by an inner power to trust infinite love, which is the source, goal, and in-between.
Therese liberates from the theology of perfectionism.
Rohr finds Therese to be the best counterweight to perfectionism, liberating him from believing in a spirituality of perfectionism based on self-defined, unattainable standards. This is particularly relevant for Enneagram Ones who struggle with perfectionism.
Therese inspires openness to daily humiliation.
He also mentions being inspired by Therese to welcome daily humiliation, seeing it as a way to handle the world's imperfections and to forgive everything. This is crucial for avoiding bitterness in later life.
Forgiveness is an action stemming from a forgiven state.
Rohr suggests that the Center for Action and Contemplation could also be called the Center for Action and Forgiveness, as action often stems from a forgiven state. Forgiveness does not imply passivity but calls for action from a place of understanding and acceptance.
Sections
Introduction of Therese and the Podcast Guests
Welcome to season 13 of Turning to the Mystics, focusing on Therese of Lisieux.
The hosts, Jim Finley and Kirsten Oates, welcome listeners to season 13 of their podcast, 'Turning to the Mystics.' This season's focus is on Therese of Lisieux and her autobiography, 'The Story of a Soul.'
Father Richard Rohr is a special guest, known for his admiration of Therese.
They introduce their special guest, Father Richard Rohr, founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation, a Franciscan friar, and an ecumenical teacher. Therese of Lisieux is noted as one of his favorite and most influential mystics.
Richard Rohr's background and influence are highlighted.
Father Richard Rohr's background as the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation, his role as a Franciscan friar and ecumenical teacher, and his focus on Christian mysticism, action, and contemplation are briefly described. His teachings guide people toward their birthright of divine love. He is also noted as the author of several influential books.
Jim Finley's Perspective on Therese
Finley was introduced to Therese through Thomas Merton.
Jim Finley shares that he was introduced to Therese of Lisieux at the monastery by Thomas Merton, who had a devotion to her. Finley received a relic of her hair, which he kept for a time.
Therese's 'Story of a Soul' was written under obedience, leading to personal disclosure.
Finley emphasizes that Therese wrote 'The Story of a Soul' under obedience to her prioress, her older sister. Unlike mystics like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, she wasn't giving directions but was writing in a deeply personal, self-disclosing way about her experience of herself in the presence of Jesus.
Therese highlights confidence in God's love over personal limitations.
Finley points out two key insights from Therese: first, that it's rare for people not to be concerned about their inabilities and shortcomings in finding God. Instead, they should place their confidence in God's infinite love for them amidst their imperfections.
Therese's 'little way' emphasizes God's sacredness as her own.
Second, Therese acknowledges her own limitations and smallness ('little way') in reaching God's sacredness. She asserts that God's sacredness becomes hers through Jesus, who gave himself to her.
Therese's writings invite intimacy and challenge the nature of the Church.
Her writings raise questions about the Church, highlighting its intimacy. Finley sets this tone for his talks on Therese, focusing on personal experience in the presence of Jesus.
Richard Rohr's Introduction to Therese and Early Spiritual Formation
Rohr encountered Therese as a 19-year-old novice.
Richard Rohr first encountered Therese through a small book by Father Liagre in his novitiate library when he was 19, looking for inspiration and guidance.
Therese's teachings offered a radical alternative to legalistic religious life.
He found Therese's teachings completely transformative, stating, 'This changes everything.' This was in stark contrast to the legalistic and ritualistic religious life prevalent before Vatican II, and the teachings of many of his professors.
Jansenism and its damaging influence on spirituality are discussed.
Rohr explains that the French church was particularly influenced by Jansenism, a form of petty, sentimental legalism that caused significant damage to spirituality. Therese's teachings, guided by love, offered a direct counterpoint.
Therese's spirituality complemented Franciscanism and sustained Rohr through seminary.
He credits Therese's underlying spirituality, complemented by Franciscanism, as what sustained him through seminary, contrasting it with the tainted legalism he received from professors. The underlying false premise he encountered was that 'if you're perfect, if you do it right, God will love you.'
Rohr and Finley entered religious life around the same time.
The hosts note that Rohr and Finley are only three months apart in age and entered religious life at the same time, both finding Therese significant early in their journeys.
Navigating Legalism with Therese's Wisdom
Rohr trusted Therese's guidance against legalistic professors.
Rohr explains he navigated the legalistic environment by trusting Therese's insight, quietly knowing her teachings were true and her professors' were not. He utilized common sense, which he attributed to his German farm parents.
Therese's 'science of love' keeps one sane.
He references a book title, 'The Love That Keeps Us Sane,' describing Therese's teaching as a science of love that maintains sanity, suggesting a lack of reliable love contributes to societal insanity.
Therese's wisdom resonated with their own early experiences of God.
The hosts discuss how Therese, writing at 19, spoke to their own experiences of God at a young age. Finley notes that they were granted foreshadowings of inner wisdom that transcended their years, a depth Therese also embodied.
Spiritual childhood is about open-faced trust, not childishness.
They explore Therese's concept of 'spiritual childhood,' likening it to the childlike openness and trust in love mentioned in the Gospel ('Unless you become as a little child...'). It's not about being childish but about open-faced trust in love.
Therese's simple stories reveal deep connections to God's presence.
Finley describes Therese's simplicity as immediate and pure, with her stories revealing deep, palpable connections to God's presence. Her insights are disarmingly simple and help bypass thought patterns to connect with what the heart knows is true, guiding one to find their true self.
Therese uses scripture to deepen her relationship with Jesus, not for proof.
Her deep immersion in scripture wasn't for proof-texting but to cultivate a profound relationship with Jesus and guide her life and understanding of reality. She lived out of scriptural stories and connections spiritually.
Lectio Divina with Therese emphasizes Jesus' personal presence in scripture.
Finley relates Therese's approach to scripture to contemplative lectio divina, where she heard Jesus' words directly, experiencing His deathless presence. Scripture for her was a revelation of Jesus' embodiment, inviting intimacy and catching one up in the living word of God.
Richard Rohr's Visit to Therese's Convent and a Transcendent Experience
Rohr visited the convent in Lisieux where Therese lived and died.
Father Richard Rohr recounts a visit five years prior to the podcast recording, accompanied by a Carmelite priest and five others, to the convent in Lisieux.
He was granted access to Therese's infirmary room.
Due to the group's interest, they were allowed a special tour, including the infirmary room where Therese died. Sister Claudette, an English-speaking nun, guided them.
A butterfly appeared and flew out the window, experienced as transcendent.
While in the infirmary, Rohr was asked to open the window to let out a large butterfly that had inexplicably entered. As the butterfly flew into the garden, Rohr felt as if he was levitating, experiencing the moment as transcendent and awe-inspiring for everyone present.
The experience was interpreted as a mission to spread Therese's message.
This event was interpreted as a sign indicating Rohr should use his teaching role to spread Therese's message, symbolized by the butterfly's release.
Rohr received a first-class relic from an archivist nun.
After the butterfly incident, an archivist nun approached Rohr and, without explanation, gave him a first-class relic (part of Therese's body), stating she felt compelled to give it to him as he clearly had a relationship with Therese.
A butterfly image in an antique shop reinforced the connection.
Later, in Avila, Spain, they found a replica of a small statuette of a yellow and orange butterfly in an antique shop, mirroring the appearance of the butterfly from the convent, which Father Bob purchased for Rohr.
Therese and Teresa of Avila used the butterfly as a soul metaphor.
Kirsten connects Rohr's experience to Therese's attunement to God in nature and her spiritual mother Teresa of Avila's use of the butterfly as a metaphor for the soul, finding the event deeply resonant with Therese's own spirituality.
Therese saw God's stunning oneness in the simple immediacy of things.
Finley remarks that the miraculous quality of the butterfly incident, stemming from a simple act, reflects how Therese saw the stunning oneness of God in the simple immediacy of things.
Therese's Final Months and the Dark Night of the Soul
Therese's teaching freed Rohr from self-analysis and criticism.
Rohr reflects that Therese's teaching prepared him for the latter years of life, freeing him from crippling self-analysis and criticism, which he observes saddens many of his peers in their final years.
Therese's infirmary room overlooked the garden, including a 'dark' hedgerow.
He describes Therese's infirmary room as small, with the bed occupying much of the space. Looking out the window at the garden, a large, dark section of the hedgerow where plants didn't grow was particularly striking.
Therese identified with the dark hedgerow during her 'dark periods'.
Sister Claudette explained that Therese used to look at this dark patch and say, 'That's me.' This referred to her experience during dark periods where she lacked the gift of consolation or understanding, yet lived by 'confiance' (confidence) in God's love, even if she couldn't feel it.
Therese experienced suffocating illness and inability to feel God's love.
Finley adds that Therese was literally suffocating from tuberculosis, gasping for oxygen. She stated, 'I still believe God loves me, but I can't feel it,' indicating she was in a state resembling the dark night of the soul until her death.
Faith is a free action, not based on external motivation.
Rohr connects this to the nature of faith, which he now understands as a free action not motivated by childhood teaching, social pressure, or sermons, but by an inner power to trust infinite love, which is the source, goal, and in-between.
God is one with us in experiencing loss and abandonment.
He further explains that in Jesus' cry on the cross, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?', God is one with us in our loss of experiencing God. Jesus surrendered to a God he could no longer find, embodying a love that transcends our feelings.
Therese embodied a love that transcends our feelings.
Therese embodies this mysterious sense of love that transcends whether we can feel it or not, acting as a presence that protects and sustains us, even through death.
Therese intentionally remained a loving presence to others.
Beyond her own experience, Therese intentionally strived to be a loving presence to the other sisters, making them feel good when they visited her.
She patiently loved those who were difficult to be around.
She practiced small acts of great love, even with those who tested her patience, like a sister who later realized she had been one of Therese's 'favorites' because Therese worked so hard to love her.
Lack of infinite free love leads to bitterness in elders.
Rohr states that without discovering infinite free love, people often turn bitter in their later years, becoming 'grumpy old people' rather than wise elders. He reiterates that the love that keeps us sane prevents this insanity.
Therese's Enduring Influence and Personal Practice
Therese continues to offer guidance and inspiration.
Both Finley and Rohr affirm that Therese still plays a significant role in their lives. Finley keeps her picture on his bookshelf for guidance, appreciating the 'incarnate love' in her face.
Catholicism uses tangible means (relics, icons) to connect with God.
Rohr contrasts Catholic and Protestant worldviews, suggesting that Catholicism, shaped before the printing press, learned to recognize and respond to God through tangible things like relics and icons. Protestantism, influenced by the Enlightenment, over-relies on words, which don't equate to experience.
Rahner critiques the Reformation's focus on 'revealed facts' over mystery.
He references theologian Karl Rahner, who noted that Luther's Reformation, influenced by the Enlightenment, viewed the Bible as revealed facts or proof texts. The Catholic Church, in counter-reformation, did similarly, omitting 'mystagogy' – the realized mystery of God.
Therese embodies direct, experiential divine teaching through creation.
Rohr highlights Therese receiving deep teachings directly from God through creation, as seen in her garden experiences. This experiential profoundness, though not overtly intellectual, can unlock deep truth in the heart.
The light of God is realized though not grasped by finitude.
Finley adds that just as the light shines in darkness and isn't grasped, our finitude cannot grasp God's light, yet we can unexplainably realize what we cannot grasp. Therese embodies this, touching our hearts with God's oneness.
Joy preceded the discovery of her terminal illness.
A striking experience of Therese's was discovering she had tuberculosis and was coughing up blood. Before knowing for sure, she felt her soul flooded with joy at the thought of potentially dying.
This joy indicates living in the light of eternity, not the present.
Rohr interprets this joy as evidence of a highly transformed human being living in the light of eternity, not the fleeting present. He questions how to re-teach this concept of eternal food for the soul to secular culture.
We often delay the infinite union with God.
He observes that even with belief in heaven as infinite union with God, humans often say 'I can wait on that one,' indicating a disconnect between theoretical belief and heartfelt acceptance.
Therese and Teresa of Avila desired to live as long as God willed.
Like Teresa of Avila, Therese seemed to possess a spirit of wanting to live as long as God willed and to die when the time came, embodying an authority beyond circumstance.
Therese liberates from the theology of perfectionism.
Rohr finds Therese to be the best counterweight to perfectionism, liberating him from believing in a spirituality of perfectionism based on self-defined, unattainable standards. This is particularly relevant for Enneagram Ones who struggle with perfectionism.
Therese inspires openness to daily humiliation.
He also mentions being inspired by Therese to welcome daily humiliation, seeing it as a way to handle the world's imperfections and to forgive everything. This is crucial for avoiding bitterness in later life.
Forgiveness is an action stemming from a forgiven state.
Rohr suggests that the Center for Action and Contemplation could also be called the Center for Action and Forgiveness, as action often stems from a forgiven state. Forgiveness does not imply passivity but calls for action from a place of understanding and acceptance.
Jesus forgives sin by living in solidarity with imperfection.
Finley explains that Jesus' forgiveness of sin involved living in solidarity with sinners, identifying with them rather than through an instrumental action. This means forgiving through living in solidarity with imperfection, which he strives to do.
Accepting imperfection leads to tasting God's infinite acceptance.
Both Finley and Rohr accept that they don't always succeed in these practices. Finley notes that deeply accepting this lack of success allows one to taste God's infinite acceptance, a concept embodied by Therese.
Choosing Spiritual Names and the Practice of Gazing
Therese chose her name, 'Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face'.
The hosts discuss Therese choosing her convent name, 'Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face,' as a reflection of her heart's deepest feelings.
Rohr initially received the name 'Friar Alexander' but later returned to Richard.
Rohr shares that he was initially given the name 'Friar Alexander' (after a recently deceased friar) for six years in his previous order. After Vatican II, religious were encouraged to use their baptismal names, so he returned to Richard.
Rohr's chosen name now: 'Richard the Gazee'.
When asked if he would choose a name now, Rohr humorously suggests 'Richard the Gazee,' referencing his practice of gazing, which has become prayerful for him, inspired by figures like Mary Oliver and Henry David Thoreau.
Gazing connects to divinity and incarnate divinity.
He explains this practice involves looking at things until one can love them, connecting to divinity, or panentheism, seeing the 'incarnate divinity' in nature, as expressed by Aquinas: 'God's more tree than a tree could ever possibly be.'
Rohr's 'The Universal Christ' aims to communicate this incarnate divinity.
Rohr notes that communicating the idea of incarnate divinity was a primary goal of his book, 'The Universal Christ,' which many readers experienced and felt gave them permission to embrace this understanding.
Rohr sees his role as giving 'permission to unlock'.
He accepts Finley's designation of 'the permission giver,' indicating his aim is to help people unlock and trust what they already know in their deepest self, confirming their inner experience.
Therese's teachings help unlock one's inner truth.
Finley agrees, stating that works like Rohr's spiritual teachings help put words to what the heart already knows, serving as an unlocking mechanism.
Concluding Thoughts and Reflections
The conversation is described as fruitful and inspiring.
As the conversation nears its end, it's described as 'all fruitful' and a blessing. The relic of Therese is present, symbolizing her continued influence.
Relics elicit a strong response, particularly from Catholics.
The hosts touch upon the Catholic tradition of relics, acknowledging that such items evoke a particular response, especially among Catholics, highlighting the human desire to connect with holiness.
Rohr expresses gratitude for the love experienced during the conversation.
Father Richard Rohr expresses deep gratitude for the love he experienced during the conversation and plans to rest peacefully.
The podcast offers answers to listener questions and resources.
The podcast concludes by inviting listeners to send in questions via email or voicemail for future episodes and directing them to the Center for Action and Contemplation website (cac.org) for more resources on contemplative paths, inner transformation, and compassionate engagement with the world.
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